It is currently Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:40 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 110 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
 TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes 
Author Message

Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 12:28 pm
Posts: 253
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Dear Vince,

I just wanted to drop the subject but alas you left yourself wide open. Can you please point out to me where I wrote a word about crew cuts? Your words my friend, not mine....... :D

One more thing and please don't take offence. When my wife and I go out on the town (you know, off the "farm") in "Hicksville", em, I mean Rome and see a man with long hair (yes, we do have a number of them here too), I make sure to point out to her that he just might be a Traditional Catholic. Tattoos and earrings are a dead give away. (I know, I know you never mentioned Tattoos nor earrings) :lol:

In JMJ,

Lance


Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:30 pm
Profile

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:13 pm
Posts: 26
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Lance Tardugno wrote:
I make sure to point out to her that he just might be a Traditional Catholic.


<sigh> Well, Colin has long hair, and he's a trad, so obviously it's possible for a man with long hair to be a trad. 8)

What really mystifies me about this whole discussion is that it presumes that a man should modify his hair length based on some gossip on a discussion forum by people who pretend to be "scandalized" because he has long hair.

If a guy wants to wear long hair, I think that's his business. :)


Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:49 pm
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 3786
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Penrod Schofield wrote:
John, are you absolutely sure about this? Is this a general practice, or is it only being done for a particular case?


Dear Penrod,

I'm sure of the facts as stated. If you doubt them, please revert to Fr. Cekada for clarification.

In any case, I'm not sure why you are asking me. Fr. Cekada is a member of the forum and posts when he chooses, and he has not cast any doubt on what I have said. If you think this may be because he didn't see it, please email him the link.

He has a policy, which has been applied in at least one case of which I am aware. That policy may be quite nuanced, for all we know, which is perhaps what you are suggesting. But it is not up to me or anybody else to extract from the limited available facts whatever the essential elements are which constitute that policy. It is, rather, the prerogative and duty of Fr. Cekada to formulate his policy and then to apply it as he sees fit. If he chooses to keep it a secret, applying it to concrete cases occasionally without ever stating the general principles underlying it, then that is his choice. He will appear arbitrary and unjust, and others may think he is ashamed of his own policy, but that is his risk.

Bishop Sanborn also has a policy which is that he refuses sacraments to those who assist at "una cum" Masses (e.g. the Masses offered by priests of the SSPX, etc.). I have been told, but I have not checked, that he has stated this policy in his parish newsletter. So, if you are investigating the SGG policy, you might also wish to look into Bishop Sanborn's equivalent. It may be instructive to see if there is any difference between them, other than that one is published and one is not.

_________________
In Christ our King,
John Lane.


Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:34 am
Profile E-mail
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 3786
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Penrod Schofield wrote:
What really mystifies me about this whole discussion is that it presumes that a man should modify his hair length based on some gossip on a discussion forum by people who pretend to be "scandalized" because he has long hair.

I don't think that's the implication at all. Nobody made any personal comment concerning hair, about Colin or anybody else. The discussion, as disedifying as it has been in some respects, was about principles, not persons.

Penrod Schofield wrote:
If a guy wants to wear long hair, I think that's his business. :)

Sure, just as if he wishes to wear blazers broadly striped in orange and blue, with a straw boater and cream slacks, and carry a teddy bear under one arm, that is entirely a matter for him also. But if he finds that he is not treated in exactly the same manner as the next chap who dresses more conventionally, he can't complain about "prejudice" or "shallowness" on the part of others. Singularity is a choice, with inevitable consequences.

_________________
In Christ our King,
John Lane.


Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:41 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 746
Location: Western Washington, USA
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Pax Christi,

Dear Lance;

I intended to drop this as well, but I will comment again as you requested.

Quote:
Can you please point out to me where I wrote a word about crew cuts? Your words my friend, not mine.......


Indeed, my starting point for the hair portion of this thread was the 1950's crew cut, and, I was using St. Lawrence's hair style as the main benchmark of contention. Which you and others responded with additional images such as " tattoos, peircings , neo-hippe etc. "

What caused my initial reaction was your post :

Quote:
I was browsing the profiles of some of the youngsters on the Tradcircle web site and it almost made me sick to my stomach, both my wife and I were scandalized. It is a horrible shame that Traditional Catholic youth embrace today's anti-culture



Now, I did not sign into the site since I do not meet the criteria, but, your comments brought to mind a situation at my Chapel, which I wanted to share with the Forum. You jumped into that with the " neo-hippe" rhetoric, backing the man that was against this young lad serving Mass, without even knowing what the young lad's hair style even looked like. Btw, the local Priest didn't buy into this man's position and allows the lad to serve.


We have all engaged in a little hyperbole regarding the others position on this topic, with many assumptions and images dancing in our heads as to the long hair look underlying this discussion.

John Lane weighed in with the example ; :)

Quote:
blazers broadly striped in orange and blue, with a straw boater and cream slacks, and carry a teddy bear under one arm, that is entirely a matter for him also


What is interesting about the discussion, as traditional Catholic's were are " in the world" but, should distance ourselves from the world. But, the counter points to my position produced by you and others was that " Society" was the judge as to what hair length is acceptable ! Majority rules eh ! :)

So the morally bankrupt world is our benchmark for proper hair styles in men? My benchmark is based on the Saints.

At the final judgment, wether the current hair style is long or short, Our Lord, I am sure will appear with the same style he had on Calvary..... :)

In my field of work, ( Mainframe Computers) I see the full gambit of men's hair styles, it makes no difference to me, I monitor their performance and competency, and grooming, not their hair length.

In Xto,
Vincent

P.S. Lance- All roads lead to Rome, how could I think you live out in Hicksville :) :)


Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:05 am
Profile

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 1:54 am
Posts: 168
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Vince Sheridan wrote:
What is interesting about the discussion, as traditional Catholic's were are " in the world" but, should distance ourselves from the world. But, the counter points to my position produced by you and others was that " Society" was the judge as to what hair length is acceptable ! Majority rules eh ! :)


This is something I've been wondering about and asked a couple of times myself. I'm not sure I follow the point of this argument.


Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:08 am
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 3786
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Colin Fry wrote:
Vince Sheridan wrote:
What is interesting about the discussion, as traditional Catholic's were are " in the world" but, should distance ourselves from the world. But, the counter points to my position produced by you and others was that " Society" was the judge as to what hair length is acceptable ! Majority rules eh ! :)


This is something I've been wondering about and asked a couple of times myself. I'm not sure I follow the point of this argument.


Well, the point I think people have tried to make is regarding conventions and their role. Conventions are useful and, more importantly, universally used.

GK Chesterton points out somewhere that the modern "suit" is a commercial-class uniform lacking any objective aesthetic merit, and with the great demerit of making everybody look alike, as though human beings were factory products. I agree with him. It is difficult for a man to look manly or civilised in a suit, although it can be done.

However, I also think that in our era men ought to wear a suit, or at least a jacket and tie, to Holy Mass, in order to display the requisite respect for the Holy Sacrifice and the Blessed Sacrament.

The two views may seem contradictory, but they aren’t. We may lament certain conventions, but they are facts and we have to accept their existence and work within the limitations they impose. This requires good judgement, honesty, humility, as well as courage.

The man who decides to flout any mere convention may defend his choice in any way he pleases, and frankly, I don’t generally care that he flouts it or how he defends his decision. And if he is doing it to garner attention, that is even more reason not to react. But he ought to accept that the cost of his decision is that some, or many, will draw conclusions from his decision. Conclusions which may be right, wrong, just, unjust, superficial, even Pharisaical. But these are reactions to a conscious decision made by the individual. As I say, I don’t care whether people follow mere conventions – but let those who don’t do so at least have the manliness and sanity to accept responsibility for the fact that their lives will be more complicated as a result.

Vince, I would say to the young lad at your chapel, with a big smile on my face and a friendly pat on his back, “Wear your hair like a girl if you like, but mate, be man enough to take the resulting flak. OK?”

_________________
In Christ our King,
John Lane.


Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:53 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 1:54 am
Posts: 168
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
okay, and with that I can fully agree. Though I do believe certain things are necessary for Mass that probably wouldn't be in every day to day activity.


Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:17 am
Profile

Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 12:28 pm
Posts: 253
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
John Lane wrote:
However, I also think that in our era men ought to wear a suit, or at least a jacket and tie, to Holy Mass, in order to display the requisite respect for the Holy Sacrifice and the Blessed Sacrament.




Dear John,

At one point in my life I didn't think a sport coat was an important thing to wear to Mass as I thought that just slacks and a short sleeve shirt was sufficient. As time went by my opinion changed and I see the importance of wearing, at least, a sport coat or similar jacket for modesty purposes alone. A tie is a beneficial accessory but, I don't feel it is necessary as long as the person wears his shirt buttoned to the top or a turtle neck. I think neatness is an important factor and sometimes I wonder if my old style would be better on some men that come to Mass with a 30 year old suit and tie on. What's your take, I'm open minded on this?

JMJ,

Lance


Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:10 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 137
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
John Lane wrote:
However, I also think that in our era men ought to wear a suit, or at least a jacket and tie, to Holy Mass, in order to display the requisite respect for the Holy Sacrifice and the Blessed Sacrament.


I agree. When discussing this some years ago with a group, the question was asked: "well, what would you wear if you were going to a meeting with a king?" From that moment on I decided that a suit and tie were appropriate for gentlemen, while ladies had a lot more scope! Modesty and neatness aren't the only issues. Just my view. I also believe there would undoubtedly be any number of reasonable exceptions to "my" rule.

AMW


Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:52 am
Profile

Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 12:28 pm
Posts: 253
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
AMWills wrote:
John Lane wrote:
However, I also think that in our era men ought to wear a suit, or at least a jacket and tie, to Holy Mass, in order to display the requisite respect for the Holy Sacrifice and the Blessed Sacrament.


I agree. When discussing this some years ago with a group, the question was asked: "well, what would you wear if you were going to a meeting with a king?" From that moment on I decided that a suit and tie were appropriate for gentlemen, while ladies had a lot more scope! Modesty and neatness aren't the only issues. Just my view. I also believe there would undoubtedly be any number of reasonable exceptions to "my" rule.

AMW



Dear AMWills,

You make a good point but, someone might say "I would wear a tuxedo and bow tie to visit a king." Would wearing a tux to church, outside of a wedding, be acceptable? :wink:

JMJ,

Lance


Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:15 am
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 3786
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Dear Lance,

I think AMWills has expressed it, but I agree, common sense must be applied. The idea is to wear one's "best" for God, isn't it? Now, somehow we know that one's "best" is not an English Dinner Suit or Tuxedo, which are a kind of fancy dress for a specific kind of occasion. Otherwise we'd expect women to wear a bridal gown every Sunday, which would be, well, very amusing... :)

I was emailed a question regarding GK's comment on suits. I replied as follows: You only need to look at the clothing of the Middle Ages to see what GK was getting at. Look at a soutane as a survival of that era, or a judge in his gown, or a king in his robes, or at a chef's outfit with its large puffy hat and black and white checked trousers, or the butcher with his blue and white striped apron, etc. It was both colourful and sober, without being too uniform. It put a man in his place, an essentially Christian idea if ever there was one, and it made that place attractive and noble. The suit is essentially industrial and banal, perfectly socialist and degrading, reducing all men to a lowest common money-orientated slavery.

Now, whilst all that is true, it is not what modern people actually see when they look at a suit - their tastes have been accustomed to the uniformity of suits, so that they are much more sensitive to subtle differences of cut, fabric, and colour. Consequently, suits have become capable of expressing masculinity and even real style, to the modern eye.

But when I'm supreme emperor of the world, I'll ban them all the same. :)

_________________
In Christ our King,
John Lane.


Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:38 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 137
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Lance Tardugno wrote:

You make a good point but, someone might say "I would wear a tuxedo and bow tie to visit a king." Would wearing a tux to church, outside of a wedding, be acceptable? :wink:


Well, fortunately I don't have this particular crisis of conscience because I wouldn't wear a tux to meet the king - for a number of reasons, not all entirely noble. I would hate him to think I was angling for a dinner invitation, when he simply invited me to discuss throne measurements for his new Queen :)

AMW


Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:42 am
Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:04 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Australia
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Dear Vince,

I’m glad you found the citations useful to you.

Regarding my own understanding on hair length I think the guiding principle should be that hair length does not go beyond what is generally held to be conservative. Of course, what length that is depends upon time and place. It would seem to me that short hair (without defining what is “short”) is the ideal today for both men and boys, but at the same time I acknowledge that there are practical reasons for men growing their hair longer than the norm, such as those who spend a considerable amount of their work time outside, to protect their ears and neck against the harmful effects of the sun’s radiation.

By the way, here is a portrait of one of my favourite writers, Orestes Brownson.

Cheers,
Dom


Image


Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:31 pm
Profile

Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:42 am
Posts: 757
Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Colin Fry wrote:
KenGordon wrote:
Vince Sheridan wrote:
None of whom lives in our modern age where such hair styles are NOT the norm.


I still would like to know what this has to do with anything. Why are we striving to follow the styles of our day?

Again, Sir, we are NOT trying to follow the styles of the day: we are trying NOT to give scandal to those who may be scandalized by our actions. We are trying to care for and understand the "sensibilities" of our fellow Catholics.

As stupid as this may sound, it is, essentially, a matter of love and respect: love of and respect for our fellow man, and love of and respect for God.

The key question here has been stated: how would you want to appear to the eyes of the King?

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon CinC
Moscow, Idaho
U.S.A.


Last edited by KenGordon on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:14 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 746
Location: Western Washington, USA
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Pax Christi !

Dear John,

As usual you touch a topic with the precision of a needle! Wonderful !

But while your point is well made ,you seem to have jump into the same hyperbole regarding this lad in questions hair lenght. Example:

Quote:
Wear your hair like a girl if you like, but mate, be man enough to take the resulting flak. OK?”


My benchamanrk has been St. Lawerance, and the general depiction of his hair lenght. His hair does not look like a " girls", but is over the ears and past the collar.

Additional comment: Surely you don't think the King of Kings hair looks like a girl? After all the height of civilized convention in our Lord's time on earth was the very short haired ,clean cut look, demonstrated by the Romans. This look was all the rage, in the empire, as opposed to the "Barbarian " long haired convention demonstrated by Our Lord and Savior. :)

Regarding general conventions, my point is that they do and are changing. Of which the other posters I guess do not see or agree. Example, When I ventured to Melborune a few years back, I was told to bring a black suite and wear a white shirt. Well, upon working in the city for 8 days I only saw one bloke in this large city wearing one :)

When we met for dinner, the account your company had just purchased, I recall the whole staff was in " casual" attire, along with Boeing, and my company.


Conventions change, that was one of my points ,that I am sure I did not make clearly enough.


Regarding dress code for Holy Mass, I could not agree with you more ! We should want to wear our best. Coat and tie always in my life time!

In Xto,
Vincent


Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:16 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 4:46 pm
Posts: 270
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
This continues the way-off-the-topic topic: I found the following article somewhat helpful as pertains to how men should dress for the male members of our family. Of course, the view expressed is taking a look at dress as pertains to 'civilization and culture', and not one's individual expression of dress.

For what it's worth:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/tucker/tucker38.html

BTW, John, Mr. Tucker seems to see the suit as an expression of stability and wisdom, rather than socialist uniformity. Of course, some occupations today still have different dress, but, certainly, not the variations of centuries ago.

_________________
In the Holy Family,
Teresa


Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:37 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 1:54 am
Posts: 168
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
KenGordon wrote:
The key question here has been stated: how would you want to appear to the eyes of the King?


If I knew it to be inappropriate I would change. But I would appear before the King just as I am, long hair and everything, just as I do every week. I'm not the only one in my church either. There are two fathers in my church much older than I who have hair much longer than I. I think we are all comfortable standing before God. Well uncomfortable for several reasons, unworthiness being one. But not on account of hair length for certain. I just can't imagine how hair length can or should cause scandal to another Catholic. I think at some point the sin of scrupulosity has to come in effect.


Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:48 pm
Profile

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:13 pm
Posts: 26
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
John Lane wrote:
The man who decides to flout any mere convention may defend his choice in any way he pleases, and frankly, I don’t generally care that he flouts it or how he defends his decision. And if he is doing it to garner attention, that is even more reason not to react. But he ought to accept that the cost of his decision is that some, or many, will draw conclusions from his decision. Conclusions which may be right, wrong, just, unjust, superficial, even Pharisaical. But these are reactions to a conscious decision made by the individual. As I say, I don’t care whether people follow mere conventions – but let those who don’t do so at least have the manliness and sanity to accept responsibility for the fact that their lives will be more complicated as a result.


Yes, I agree with all of this. I think our only difference is in degree rather than in kind. I was only maintaining that the simple fact of a man having long hair does not by itself put him into the category of someone who deliberately flouts conventions.

However, since this is a matter of judgment, I understand that other people may draw the line closer in than I do, and I respect their opinion in that regard.

[Edited once for typo correction.]


Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:59 pm
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 3786
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
KenGordon wrote:
Again, Sir, we are NOT trying to follow the styles of the day: we are trying NOT to give scandal to those who may be scandalized by our actions. We are trying to care for and understand the "sensibilities" of our fellow Catholics.

As stupid as this may sound, it is, essentially, a matter of love and respect: love of and respect for our fellow man, and love of and respect for God.

The key question here has been stated: how would you want to appear to the eyes of the King?


Perfect.

_________________
In Christ our King,
John Lane.


Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:48 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:04 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Australia
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
In it’s explanation of 1 Corinthians XI: 14, the work A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (1953) p.1093, states, “It was the universal custom among Jews, Greeks and Romans for men to wear the hair short.” (Emphasis mine).

According to the Haydock’s Bible the first Epistle to the Corinthians was written about 56 AD. Not that long after the death of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I presume the “universal custom” of the Jews was current during the life of Christ, who was a Jew.

As I understand it the two main objections raised against the position of Vince Sheridan, which is that "long hair" is not inappropriate for today, are 1. It is contrary to what is the norm and 2. It would give the impression of being a hippie or the like.

As to the first point if the citation from A Catholic Commentary of Holy Scripture is correct, then the argument from universal custom or what is the norm cannot be maintained as Christ obviously went against the universal custom of His own people i.e. the Jews.

As to the second I haven’t seen any definition of “long hair” which if one includes collar length hair by that term or even hair just “past the collar”, then one cannot liken it, with the hair style of a hippie, unless you go by a different definition.

Dom Pook


Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:46 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:04 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Australia
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
I missed putting the emphasis to the following citation from my last post which I have added here.

“It was the universal custom among Jews, Greeks and Romans for men to wear the hair short.” (Emphasis mine).

Dom


Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:53 pm
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 3786
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
DJSP wrote:
As I understand it the two main objections raised against the position of Vince Sheridan, which is that "long hair" is not inappropriate for today, are 1. It is contrary to what is the norm and 2. It would give the impression of being a hippie or the like.

As to the first point if the citation from A Catholic Commentary of Holy Scripture is correct, then the argument from universal custom or what is the norm cannot be maintained as Christ obviously went against the universal custom of His own people i.e. the Jews.


Thanks for the data, Dom.

I think that Vince's position is ambiguous. If he is merely saying that he thinks that a lad with longish (shoulder-length) hair ought to be permitted to serve Holy Mass, that is one thing. If he is arguing that shoulder-length hair is just as good as short hair for men, so that (for example) parents really ought not to counsel or instruct their boys to cut their hair short, then that is a different point.

As far as custom goes, I don't think Our Lord went against it. Indeed, that is the whole point of His example in this matter. He wore His hair in the manner of the day. We ought to do the same, so as to be inoffensive to all men insofar as we can, and so that the things upon which we will inevitably differ with our brethren outside the Church will be the only differences we have with them. How could one be "all things to all men" by flouting every custom and making oneself effectively an alien amongst one's peers?

I think the way to understand Dr. Haydock or the Catholic Commentary is to see that "long" hair is past the shoulder, and "short" hair is shoulder-length or shorter.

Statues which depict Our Lord with hair effectively longer than shoulder-length, so that it sits on the shoulders almost bunched up, are inaccurate in my understanding. And I think they make Our Lord look unnecessarily feminine. Sacred art definitely fell into an indefensible sensualism in the past two hundred years anyway, but that is another subject.

Custom today is of course shattered in many respects, so that there almost isn't any "norm" in many things. This is partly true of hair length, but not totally. Really long hair is definitely "odd" on a man. Shoulder-length hair is a bit effeminate but not unusual enough to be beyond the realms of reasonableness. In this country in the 1970s and 1980s a crew cut was probably as unusual as shoulder-length hair - or even more unusual. I don't think anybody would ever have refused to let a lad serve Mass because of a crew cut, but I can imagine that many people would have looked askance at it and wondered what it signified. A #1 crew cut is a very aggressive style, however you explain it. In fact, I would say that almost the only young men wearing crew cuts in this country in the 1980s were "skin-head" types (and visiting Americans). :)

_________________
In Christ our King,
John Lane.


Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:02 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 746
Location: Western Washington, USA
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Pax Christi !

Dear John,

I was done with this topic but since your bringing me up I will respond if you please.

Quote:
If he is merely saying that he thinks that a lad with longish (shoulder-length) hair ought to be permitted to serve Holy Mass, that is one thing. If he is arguing that shoulder-length hair is just as good as short hair for men, so that (for example) parents really ought not to counsel or instruct their boys to cut their hair short, then that is a different point.


Your first suggestion was all I was trying to say. With the added suggestion, not to judge by this superifical external the persons inward state of grace. Ted Bundy was one of the most clean cut, neat well groomed, and charming blokes one could meet.... yet, he was an evil to the core person.

Quote:
If he is merely saying that he thinks that a lad with longish (shoulder-length) hair ought to be permitted to serve Holy Mass,


.... I have never suggested that I was giving advice to parents. Nor, did I say the lad in question had shoulder length hair. I held for this discussion the common depiction of St. Lawrence. ( Hair over the ears and below the collar) Not per say shoulder length hair.

My example for shoulder length hair was Our Lord, not St. Lawrence, nor the lad in question.

Quote:
I think the way to understand Dr. Haydock or the Catholic Commentary is to see that "long" hair is past the shoulder, and "short" hair is shoulder-length or shorter.



I do not follow how you could make this distinction. Here is a typical men’s hair style for Romans : Well for some reason I cannot post an image.

But normal hair length for Roman men was above the ear and short at the neck.

Quote:
Statues which depict Our Lord with hair effectively longer than shoulder-length, so that it sits on the shoulders almost bunched up, are inaccurate in my understanding


I recall this custom was borne from the idea Our Lord might have been a " Nazarite"

Numbers Chapter 6 The law of the Nazarites

5 All the time of his separation no razor shall pass over his head, until the day be fulfilled of his consecration to the Lord. He shall be holy, and shall let the hair of his head grow.

Quote:
A #1 crew cut is a very aggressive style, however you explain it. In fact, I would say that almost the only young men wearing crew cuts in this country in the 1980s were "skin-head" types (and visiting Americans).


I was using the crew cut as my starting point to contrast from 1950 to the present. The crew cut was very much a common style in America during the 1950's into the mid 1960's.

In America, Skin Heads do not have crew cuts, but rather, hair length more like yours John :) : ) i.e. No hair on top :)


In Xto,
Vincent


Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:09 am
Profile

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:03 pm
Posts: 515
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Vince wrote:
With the added suggestion, not to judge by this superifical external the persons inward state of grace. Ted Bundy was one of the most clean cut, neat well groomed, and charming blokes one could meet.... yet, he was an evil to the core person.


Vince,

I don’t think that all the aspects of the external appearance of a person are “superficial”. Generally, we should not judge a person based on the aspects of their physical appearance that they cannot control. Many aspects of our appearance we do control, however, and we are rightly judged in these areas. How we maintain our appearance is an action, is it not? This is far from superficial.

Robert


Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:53 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 746
Location: Western Washington, USA
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Pax Christi !

Dear Robert,

Quote:
How we maintain our appearance is an action, is it not? This is far from superficial.


Does that not go without saying? I was refering to hair lenght and ONLY hair lenght.

In Xto,
Vincent


Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:59 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:46 pm
Posts: 74
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
I can't believe that this bickering over a haircut has been going on for seven pages.
I know a young man (16) who has relatively long hair. In fact he styles it so that it covers much of his face. The same young man assists at both the low Mass and Sung Mass on Sundays, reads devotional books and regularly prays his rosary.
I also know a young man with short hair, he goes only to one Mass, looks bored for most of it and my guess is that once he's no longer living with his parents he will give up the faith all together.

I think we should all remember that our bodies, hair included, are only temporary. It's our soul we have to worry about.


Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:44 am
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 3786
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Frank Gale wrote:
I can't believe that this bickering over a haircut has been going on for seven pages.


We're not bickering, Frank, we're all friends, and good friends.

I think it went off there for a while, but this is an interesting set of considerations for modern Catholics. We're constantly faced with the kind of issues for which this present question of hair length can serve as a typical example.

One thing alone makes it a worthwhile discussion, and that is that we ought to know how to discuss matters which are not questions of sin in themselves, but which carry symbolism of various kinds, without erecting our views into religious dictates. This same principle carries through into all kinds of political and cultural issues, to name only two categories.

_________________
In Christ our King,
John Lane.


Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:09 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 8:21 am
Posts: 174
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Quote:
I think we should all remember that our bodies, hair included, are only temporary.


I think we should all remember that our bodies, hair included, are not temporary and this is a fundamental article of our faith, expressed in the Apostles' Creed.


Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:08 am
Profile

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 746
Location: Western Washington, USA
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Pax Christi !


Quote:
We're not bickering, Frank, we're all friends, and good friends.


Indeed, and I will echo this, and I hope I have not offended anyone with this topic. Also i consider Ken Gordon a brother in Christ. I reacted a few posts back out of frustration, frustration in my own lack of written communication skills. And I seemd to upset his sensibilities grealty by my lack of polish.

We are all here, members of Christ's mystical body, and will never stop praying one for another ! As I am sure you will all pray for me.


In Xto,

Vincent


Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:07 am
Profile

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:13 pm
Posts: 26
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Young Sedes
Penrod Schofield wrote:
(I would use a smiley with long hair, but unfortunately there isn't one, so you'll have to use your imagination).


Here we go: Image

I think that expresses more or less what I was trying to say. :lol:


Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:04 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:04 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Australia
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Dear John,

Thanks for the explanation on how you think “short” hair and “long” hair are to be understood with respect to the Catholic Commentary and Haydocks Bible.

However, if we accept that Our Lord did not go against the universal custom of His day with regard to hair length, which is what I think, it would seem to me that perhaps “short hair” i.e. shoulder length or shorter, was not so universal after all or the Catholic Commentary is simply wrong in stating “short hair” was the universal custom, as the best evidence we have as to Our Lord’s hair length, the Shroud of Turin, would seem to indicate that His hair went past the shoulder. I don’t have an image at hand to post, but look at, for example, The Blood and the Shroud, by Ian Wilson (plates 14a & 14b) or a number of other books on the Shroud of Turin.

I would be interested to hear your view (and anyone else's)

In Christo,
Dom


Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:41 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:46 pm
Posts: 746
Location: Western Washington, USA
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Pax Christi

Dear DJSP,

I think John Lane needs to provide evidence as to why he thinks the Catholic Commentary really means " Short hair" includes on the shoulder, and long hair past the shoulder.

Now, I do not know of a research paper which covers hair length studies for the Romans, and for that matter the rest of the empire's peoples. But, it appears the common view is that the civilized Romans wore short hair i.e. not over the ears, and off the back of the neck.

While many other cultures of the day, by they " barbarian" , Germanic tribes, or warriors directly from " long haired" Gaul, wore their hair at least on the shoulder to past shoulder length.

Example 1: I visited Pompeii back in the 1970's.... long time ago :) And saw the plaster cast images of at least 80 Romans from all walks of life. Be they a slave, merchant, or Noblemen, all had noticeably short hair as I described.

Example 2: All the statues of roman noblemen, and Emperors, all have short hair.

Example 3: The movie Passion of the Christ. Jesus has long hair, the Romans short, with the added Apostle Judas having short hair, since he was well educated i.e. a Scholar. Granted it is only a movie, but Mel Gibson is reported to have gone to great " lenghts" :lol: , to provide an accurate accounting of the mores and "look" of the time period.

Example 4 :In addtion, what I find interesting is the custom of the East regarding Priests and Bishops, they generally have longer hair then the West ( Latin Rite clergy) and they ahve the requirement that they grow a long Beard..... Our Priests and Bishops tend ( Latin Rite) follow a more " Roman" standard of style.


When I was in school I did ask once about our Lord being depicted having very long hair, ( well past his shoulders) many of the Statues of the Sacred Heart of Jesus depict our Lord in this way. Both professors stated in their understanding, it was because of the idea Jesus might have been from the Nazarite sect, the men never cut their hair.

Numbers Chapter 6 The law of the Nazarites

5 All the time of his separation no razor shall pass over his head, until the day be fulfilled of his consecration to the Lord. He shall be holy, and shall let the hair of his head grow.

In Xto,
Vincent


Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:57 pm
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 3786
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Vince Sheridan wrote:
I think John Lane needs to provide evidence as to why he thinks the Catholic Commentary really means " Short hair" includes on the shoulder, and long hair past the shoulder.


Yes, I agree. I was going to say the same thing to Dom about my point on that.

I was defining "short" as anything to the shoulder, and "long" as anything longer than the shoulder. In women's styles I think this is roughly how they would use the terms, for example. If you said, "That lady had long hair" the mental image produced would not be of hair reaching merely to her collar. It would be part-way down her back, at least. In any case, I am familiar with the Roman style, and with the style of Jews of that era (or thought I was) and my point was merely to justify or explain that text from the Catholic Commentary, which groups Jewish and Roman hair length together as "short." Our Lord certainly had hair longer than the Roman style. Dom took from this that Our Lord departed strikingly from the custom of the day for some reason. I take from it that perhaps we don't understand what the Catholic Commentary means when it employs the word "short."

Of course, we can always merely toss the Catholic Commentary aside, as I'm sure many traditional scholars would prefer... :)

Anyway, without some additional data as you suggest, Vince, we're not going any further on this I suspect.

_________________
In Christ our King,
John Lane.


Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:32 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:04 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Australia
New post Re: TradCircle: Meeting Site for Selected Young Sedes
Vince Sheridan wrote:
Dear DJSP,

I think John Lane needs to provide evidence as to why he thinks the Catholic Commentary really means " Short hair" includes on the shoulder, and long hair past the shoulder.

Now, I do not know of a research paper which covers hair length studies for the Romans, and for that matter the rest of the empire's peoples. But, it appears the common view is that the civilized Romans wore short hair i.e. not over the ears, and off the back of the neck.

While many other cultures of the day, by they " barbarian" , Germanic tribes, or warriors directly from " long haired" Gaul, wore their hair at least on the shoulder to past shoulder length.

Example 1: I visited Pompeii back in the 1970's.... long time ago And saw the plaster cast images of at least 80 Romans from all walks of life. Be they a slave, merchant, or Noblemen, all had noticeably short hair as I described.

Example 2: All the statues of roman noblemen, and Emperors, all have short hair.

Example 3: The movie Passion of the Christ. Jesus has long hair, the Romans short, with the added Apostle Judas having short hair, since he was well educated i.e. a Scholar. Granted it is only a movie, but Mel Gibson is reported to have gone to great " lenghts" , to provide an accurate accounting of the mores and "look" of the time period.

Example 4 :In addtion, what I find interesting is the custom of the East regarding Priests and Bishops, they generally have longer hair then the West ( Latin Rite clergy) and they ahve the requirement that they grow a long Beard..... Our Priests and Bishops tend ( Latin Rite) follow a more " Roman" standard of style.


When I was in school I did ask once about our Lord being depicted having very long hair, ( well past his shoulders) many of the Statues of the Sacred Heart of Jesus depict our Lord in this way. Both professors stated in their understanding, it was because of the idea Jesus might have been from the Nazarite sect, the men never cut their hair.

Numbers Chapter 6 The law of the Nazarites

5 All the time of his separation no razor shall pass over his head, until the day be fulfilled of his consecration to the Lord. He shall be holy, and shall let the hair of his head grow.

In Xto,
Vincent


Dear Vince,

I think you made some very good points here.

My own view on the point of whether the manner of Our Lord’s hair went against the universal custom of the day has been shifting.

It would seem to me that, while Our Lord would go against a universal custom willy-nilly, He may do so for some religious reason, such as you have mentioned before Vince, i.e. in respect to the “law of the Nazarites”. That He wore His hair long, that is, past the shoulders and contrary to the universal custom of the day I believe is supported by certain evidence, for example, the Shroud of Turin which I previously mentioned and Msgr. Gaume’s, Catechism of Perserverance (see quote below).

However, I do not think the reasons for the manner of Our Lord’s hair or any of the Saints living in times different from our own can be used in support of the wearing of long or shoulder-length by both men and boys today.

In Christo,
Dom


Msgr Gaume’s, Catechism of Perseverance, Tome IV, p. 367-368, note.:

“Here is a portrait of Our Lord as preserved for us from antiquity: -
He had a most beautiful countenance, full of life. He was above the middle height. His hair was a little yellow, not very thick, and gently curling. His eyebrows were black and slightly arched. From His clear olive eyes, there beamed a something most admirable. His nose was long. His beard resembled His hair, and was of moderate size. His hair was pretty long; for no razor had ever passed over His head, nor any person’s hand save His Mother’s during His infancy. His neck bent forward a little, so that there was nothing at all still or formal in His carriage. His complexion inclined towards the colour of gold or wheat. His face was neither round nor sharp, but like His Mother’s, a little long and a little ruddy: gravity, prudence, mildness, and peace shone wonderfully in it. To conclude, He was in all respects exceedingly like His divine and immaculate Mother.
“Egregio is vividoque vultu fuit. Corporis statura ad palmos prorsus septem. Caesariem habuit subflavam et non admodum densam, leniter quodammodo ad crispos declinantem: supercilia nigra, non perinde inflexa. Ex oculis subflavescentibus mirifica prominebat gratia. Acres ii erant et nasus longior. Barbae capillus flavus, nec admodum dimissus. Capitis porro capillos tulit prolixiores. Novacula enim in caput ejus non ascendit, neque manus aliqua hominis, praeterquam matris in tenera duntaxat aetate ejus. Collum fuit sensim declive, ita ut non arduo et extento nimium corporis statu esset. Porro tritici referres colorem; non rotundam aut acutam habuit faciem: sed qualis matris ejus erat, paullum deorsum versus vergentem ac modice rubicundam: gravitatem atque prudentiam cum lenitate conjunctam, placabilitatemque iracundiae expertem prae se ferentem. Persimilis denique per omnia fuit divinae et immaculatae suae Genetrici. (Niceph. Callixt., 1. I, c.xl. On the proofs of the authenticity of this portrait, see Sandini, Hist. Famil. sacr., c. xvii. p.287)” Emphases added.


Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:15 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 110 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.